Unofficial FAQ Turboline ADSL test project ========================================== Last modified: 28 Februari 1999 Version: 2.15 Copyright: (c) 1998-99 Frederik Questier Recent Changes -------------- Version 2.15 (28/02/99): [5.7] [6.1] [6.4] Version 2.14 (15/02/99): [1.4] [6.3] [6.4] Version 2.13 (29/01/99): [5.5] [6.1] [7.6] Version 2.12 (19/01/99): [5.5] [7.6] Version 2.11 (10/01/99): [5.5] [7.5] Version 2.10 (05/01/99): [3.6] [7.1] [7.5] Version 2.9 (24/12/98): [5.4] [5.8] Version 2.8 (24/12/98): [4.14] [6.4] [7.5] NEW!!: [7.6] Version 2.7 (20/12/98): [4.1] [4.4] [4.16] [5.5] Version 2.6 (30/10/98): [4.5] [5.5] Version 2.5 (30/10/98): [4.4] Version 2.4 (26/10/98): [4.5] [4.10] Version 2.3 (22/10/98): [4.3] [4.9] [4.10] [4.11] [4.14] Version 2.2 (18/10/98): [5.5] Version 2.1 (13/10/98): [1.3] [3.4] [3.6] [6.4] Version 2.0 (10/10/98): [3.4] [3.5] [3.6] [4.2] [4.4] [4.8] [5.5] [7.2] [7.3] Added *TF* behind the questions which are also covered in the new official Turbo FAQ http://www.turboline.be/faq/indexfaq.htm Version 1.9 (06/10/98): [3.6] [5.5] NEW!!: [5.8] [6.4] Version 1.8 (27/09/98): [3.6] [4.6] [4.14] [6.1] [7.1] Version 1.7 (18/09/98): [4.15] Version 1.6 (10/09/98): [4.4] [4.8] Version 1.5 (06/09/98): [3.2] [4.2] [4.4] [4.11] [6.2] [7.1] Version 1.4 (26/08/98): [3.2] [3.6] Version 1.3 (25/08/98): [5.3] Version 1.2 (24/08/98): [3.7] [7.1] Version 1.1 (17/08/98): [1.3] [1.5] [3.2] [3.6] [4.3] [4.7] [4.10] [5.5] [6.1] [6.2] [6.3] [7.5] Version 1.0 (13/08/98): None since this was the first version ;-) FAQ Table of Contents --------------------- [1] About the FAQ [1.1] What is this FAQ? [1.2] Who maintains this FAQ? [1.3] Who provides information to the FAQ? [1.4] Where can this FAQ be found? [1.5] Why this FAQ? [2] General about Turboline and ADSL [2.1] What is Turbo Line? [2.2] What is ADSL? [3] Equipment and services of Turboline [3.1] Who is supplier for Turboline Pilot Project? [3.2] The modem [3.3] The pots splitter [3.4] The network [3.5] The Backbone [3.6] Which machines and network software is Turboline using? [3.7] What are the Turboline newsgroups? *TF* [4] Connection [4.1] What are the different methods of connection? [4.2] Turboconnector [4.3] Telnet + Authentification over WWW [4.4] Ras for Windows 98 [4.5] Automation of Telnet + WWW under MS-Win [4.6] Automation of Telnet + WWW under Linux [4.7] Turboconnector emulator for Linux [4.8] Why do I have so many disconnections? [4.9] Why can't I have FTP-transfers / dcc-transfers / network-games ICQ chats / Net-meetings / talk-sessions ... with other Turboliners or X-sessions / ping-replies ... with other Turboline machines? [4.10] Are there any ways around this routing problem? [4.11] Will the routing problem be solved? *TF* [4.12] Why do I get sometimes 169.xxx.xxx.xxx IP nrs? *TF* [4.13] Can I get a permanent IP address? *TF* [4.14] Why are some Internet hosts not reachable (only for Turboline-testers)? [4.15] What about RAS forgetting my settings? [4.16] PPTP connection method [5] Speed [5.1] Standard speed abbreviations *TF* [5.2] What's the speed of ADSL? [5.3] What's the speed of Turboline? [5.4] What will be the speed of the commercial product? [5.5] Are there any speed comparisons with Cable-Internet? [5.6] How can I measure my speed? [5.7] How can I know how much traffic I had? *TF* [5.8] Is somebody monitoring Turboline's performance? [6] Prices [6.1] What prices does Belgacom have in mind? [6.2] What are the prices of Cable-Internet? [6.3] Any other price comparisons? [6.4] What about the volume limit? *TF* [7] Misc. [7.1] When is Belgacom going commercial with ADSL? *TF* [7.2] Is Belgacom reading the turboline.* newsgroups? [7.3] What about Privacy / security ? [7.4] Do you have any speed tips? [7.5] Will ADSL be available everywhere at the same time? *TF* [7.6] Which providers give ADSL-access? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Answers [1] About the FAQ [1.1] What is this FAQ? Frequently Asked Questions and their answers about Belgacom's Turboline ADSL Test Project. [1.2] Who maintains this FAQ? Frederik Questier mailto:fquestie@vub.vub.ac.be [1.3] Who provides information to the FAQ? Everyone who is willing to. Everyone who said something useful in the turboline.* news groups. Frederik Questier Sven Clarysse Johan Morris Alain Nissen Philippe Hennebert And many others. [1.4] Where can this FAQ be found? turboline.support newsgroup http://vub.vub.ac.be/~fquestie/turbo (Restricted to Turboline and Belgacom sites) [1.5] Why this FAQ? Because of people asking the same questions over and over again, which I and others were always answering again and again. The short expiry time on the turboline.* newsgroups... [2] General about Turboline and ADSL [2.1] What is Turbo Line? 2 subjective links: http://www.belgacom.be/uk/onthenet/surfing/fsturbo.htm http://www.turboline.be/gb/aboutgb.htm [2.2] What is ADSL? http://homepage.interaccess.com/~jkristof/xdsl-faq.txt news://comp.dcom.xdsl [3] Equipment and services of Turboline [3.1] Who is supplier for Turboline Pilot Project? Alcatel : http://www.alcatel.com/telecom/asd/keytech/adsl/adsl 03/06/98 Data News 22: "De databackbone wordt uitgebreid met apparatuur van Cisco en Siemens" [3.2] The modem Alcatel 1000 modem http://www.alcatel.com/telecom/asd/keytech/adsl/adsl/page6.htm The Alcatel 1000 modem can be upgraded by changing the content of the EEPROM (remotely). Tip: Vertically the fan goes on much less than horizontally. This is from the newsgroup 'comp.dcom.xdsl' : >(for information only - not recommended practice) > >De: wdcNOSPAM@ameritech.net (Bill) >Objet: Alcatel 1000 ADSL overheating? > >I've been thrashing around with all sorts of problems on an Ameritech >ADSL installation in Royal Oak, Michigan for a few months now. I'm >pretty certain my 20 years as an electrical engineer has identified one >of them. > >This Alcatel 1000 ADSL modem (sticker is July '97) and one I had >previous both seem to overheat. Ambient (measured accurately) only gets >to about 82F. The book (page 6) says it's rated to 45C/113F. > >Here's what happens... > >After an extended fan time the DATA ERROR led comes on (red). Some >seconds later (3-5 maybe) the DATA ERROR light goes off, THE FAN GOES >OFF and it tries to re-sync (often unsuccessfully). Data on the >network, of course, is dead. The case is surprisingly warm for being >plastic. > >Why does the fan goes off? My theory is it got a reset (like a >watch-dog reset when the processor goes haywire from heat?). I note >that a power cycle does not immediately restart the fan if it was on. > >I used my fingernail to remove the top cover (6 latches) and have been >running for a week (including several hot days) with no cover mounted >vertically on the wall. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!! I have yet to see the >symptom above.... yet it used to occur at least every other day and >often several times a day. > >By the way - coverless, the fan never comes on at all. Hmmmm... > >To me, the modem looks totally air starved - evidenced by a lack of air >coming from the unit when the fan runs. I think it's supposed to blow >out the bottom but I'm not even certain the fan can move enough air to >cool itself yet alone the system when the case is on. There's a large >metal EMI shield around the core full of holes. > >Anyone else seeing this? (or are you all in comfy a/c? ). > >This case has decorative slots on the sides... did they forget the air >holes? Do later ones have real holes??? 06/09/98 Stefaan Ponnet : >I bought an 12V fan , like the ones they use in a PC power supply - >maybe you could rip it out of an old PC. I hooked it up to a small trafo, >and fed it with 6V instead of 12V. The fan rotates , but at much lower >speed - and you can't hear it at all.. I attached it to the rear of the >ADSL modem with 2 small screws , that just kinda 'grab' into the holes >in the plastic of the modem , and I attached the modem (with the fan in >the back) to the wall. >Since the modem now is fed with a (small) air-current, the internal fan >never switches on again... Alcatel will now switch to another chip in their modems, which will be much cooler, making a ventilator unnecessary. Kris: >Klopt. Volgens mijn inside contacten is het in de volgende versie van de >modems verholpen.. Wij hebben nog versie 2.3. Vanaf 3.0 is het verholpen. >Ter info: er wordt bv. ook aan een versie gewerkt die je op USB kan >aansluiten.. Dan is binnenkort zelfs de ethernet kaart niet meer nodig.. 12/08/98 Manuel Borowski - Alcatel Telecom: >Verwacht nu niet dat die versie die je in handen hebt de uiteindelijke >zal zijn, verre van. Het feit dat er een fan in zit komt van vroegere >erfenissen die steeds maar worden overgenomen naar volgende versies >(zoiets als Intel met hun 80x86), maar een nieuwe, frisse en heldere >dageraad zal weldra aanbreken : minder lawaai (niets), minder >stroomverbruik en stabieler (waarschijnlijk ook de reden waarom Belgacom >nog niet op full deployment overgaat). Forget the crap about Intel. 25/08/98 Manuel Borowski - Alcatel Telecom: >Volgens welingelichte bron zal Alcatel binnenkort met een opvolger van >de huidige modem komen. Ik denk niet dat er voor de gebruiker veel zal >veranderen (alleen maakt hij geen lawaai meer), maar hij zal wel veel >kost effectiever, beter onderhoudbaar en meer mogelijkheden hebben (voor >de provider dan toch). Dus ik veronderstel dat Belgacom nu aan't wachten >is op die generatie. [3.3] The pots splitter http://www.alcatel.com/telecom/asd/keytech/adsl/adsl/page7.htm [3.4] The network 03/06/98 Data News 22: "De databackbone wordt uitgebreid met apparatuur van Cisco en Siemens" Belgacom told (I got doubts about this, I anyway don't remember where they did) there was a 155Mbit/s ATM ring connecting the customers and the backbone and in the future also connecting the participating ISPs. However: 6/10/98 Belgacom @ Turbo Line Squad event >There are different centers spread over Belgium, with on each ca. 100 testers connected. >Actually there are now 20 such centers for 1000 testers. Each center is connected to >the Dana server with a 2Mbit/s line. So even if they remove the 512kbit/s limit now, we would anyway not go over 2Mbit/s. 10/10/98 Stroobants Bruno (Belgacom) in be.providers: >In elke ' POP zonal center ' zal er een ATM switch komen, vandaar zal er >een verbinding zijn met de kleinere centrales van belgacom ' adsl local >exchange ' hier zal je analoge lijn samen met adsl tot bij jou thuis >komen, een splitter zal geinstalleerd worden om lijn en adsl te >scheiden. [3.5] The Backbone The backbone of Belbone is used: 8 Mbit/s to USA MCI (or is it shared?) 4 Mbit/s to BT London 2 Mbit/s to Stockholm 2 Mbit/s to Paris + Peering with BNIX But at least Belgacom, Skynet and Interpac are clients of Belbone. Taking away a lot of the bandwidth? Belbone owns the IP-addresses 195.13.0.0 till 195.13.31.255. See: http://www.ripe.net/cgi-bin/whois?belbone 6/10/98 Belgacom @ Turbo Line Squad event >Belgacom counts normally 4kbits/s per customer for international backbone [3.6] Which machines and network software is Turboline using? 195.13.1.3 relay.turboline.be pop.turboline.be mail.belbone.be QPOP (version 2.52) - upgraded from the vulnerable 2.2 ;-) 195.13.1.13 ns.belbone.be (backup DNS) Apache 195.13.14.193 gw1.turboline.be SUN Ultra - SUNOS Telnet 195.13.14.240 unknown.turboline.be SUN Ultra - SUNOS SUN SNMP Agent 195.13.14.244 games.turboline.be SunOS 5.6 SunOS FTP server SUN SNMP Agent 195.13.14.245 www.turboline.be SUN Ultra - SUNOS FTP server Version wu-2.4.2-academ[BETA-15] Apache/1.2.5 SUN SNMP Agent 195.13.14.246 users.turboline.be SUN Ultra - SUNOS FTP server Version wu-2.4.2-academ[BETA-15] Apache/1.2.5 SUN SNMP Agent 195.13.14.247 learning.turboline.be 195.13.14.248 tucows.turboline.be ftp.turboline.be SUN Ultra - SUNOS FTP server Version wu-2.4.2-academ[BETA-15] Apache/1.3.1 (Unix) (first Apache/1.2.5) SUN SNMP Agent 195.13.14.249 dns.turboline.be 195.13.14.251 cmb.turboline.be SGI 180MHZ MIPS R10000 128MB IRIX FTP server Version wu-2.4.2-academ[BETA-15] Netscape-FastTrack/2.0f Telnet 195.13.14.253 julius.belbone.be (proxyserver) SUN Ultra - Solaris 2.6 FTP server Version wu-2.4.2-academ[BETA-15] Apache/1.2.4 Squid 1.1.22 195.13.17.192 adsl-1.belbone.be 195.13.17.193 adsl-2.belbone.be 195.13.17.194 adsl-3.belbone.be 195.13.17.195 adsl-4.belbone.be 195.13.17.196 adsl-5.belbone.be 195.13.17.197 adsl-6.belbone.be 195.13.17.198 adsl-7.belbone.be 195.13.17.199 adsl-8.belbone.be 195.13.17.200 adsl-9.belbone.be 195.13.17.201 adsl-10.belbone.be 195.13.17.202 adsl-11.belbone.be 195.13.17.203 adsl-12.belbone.be 195.13.17.204 adsl-13.belbone.be 195.13.17.205 adsl-14.belbone.be 195.13.17.206 adsl-15.belbone.be 195.13.17.207 adsl-16.belbone.be 195.13.17.208 adsl-17.belbone.be 195.13.17.209 adsl-18.belbone.be 195.13.17.210 adsl-19.belbone.be 195.13.17.208 adsl-17.belbone.be 195.13.17.209 adsl-18.belbone.be (outgoing 1st host) 195.13.17.210 adsl-19.belbone.be 195.13.17.211 adsl-20.belbone.be 195.13.17.212 adsl-21.belbone.be 195.13.17.213 adsl-22.belbone.be 195.13.17.214 adsl-23.belbone.be 195.13.17.215 adsl-24.belbone.be 195.13.17.216 adsl-25.belbone.be 195.13.17.217 adsl-26.belbone.be 195.13.17.218 adsl-27.belbone.be 195.13.17.219 adsl-28.belbone.be 195.13.17.220 adsl-29.belbone.be 195.13.17.221 adsl-30.belbone.be 195.13.17.222 adsl-31.belbone.be 195.13.17.223 adsl-32.belbone.be 195.13.21.1 adsl1.turboline.be dana.tele.com (gateway) Apache/1.2.0 Radius software 195.238.2.9 irc.turboline.be irc.skynet.be 195.238.2.13 news.turboline.be news1.skynet.be news.skynet.be InterNetNews NNRP server INN 1.6b3 31-Jul-1997 [3.7] What are the Turboline newsgroups? *TF* news://news.turboline.be/turboline.announce news://news.turboline.be/turboline.binaries news://news.turboline.be/turboline.support Those newsgroups are hosted on the Skynet server, but are not readable by Skynet customers. Note: this would not be true anymore since at least Fri 21/08/98 [4] Connection [4.1] What are the different methods of connection? Users connected before the middle of April were configured through Telnet+WWW-form, new (MS-WIN) users are configured with TurboConnect, unless they ask to have the first system. If you wanna change method, you have to ask the Helpdesk, since they have to change something at Belgacom's side. 6/10/98 Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event >Turboline will stop using Turboconnector/RAS, and will use PPTP as soon >as it is available. See [4.16] [4.2] Turboconnector Turboconnector is software from Alcatel, for Windows95 and WindowsNT only. The software automatically handles the DHCP stuff for IP address attribution, the user authentification and the user-still-alive detection. The software is very unstable (See [4.8]) Somebody said it only works with 3COM Ethernet cards and has been reported as failing with other cards. 31/08/98 Herwig Scheck reported that RAS v1123 is working on an NE2000 compatible PCI card. The other drawback is that the software uses a "secret" (non-public, non-standard) protocol, so it is quite impossible to implement such a software on all operating systems. For every OS they need another version of Turboconnector Even after an OS upgrade (Turboconnector didn't work for many months with W98 or winsock 2, however latest RAS does now). An excellent analysis of the protocol was made by Turboline tester Ivo Clarryse. See http://foobar.starlab.net/~soggie/turboline Turboconnector has the following problems: * Doesn't work with Winsock2. * Seems to trick Windows into believing that pc is not idle, therefore disabling the screensaver. * Makes games stall very briefly every so often. * Makes some 3Dfx programs jump back to Windows. * It looses connection very often, mostly during heavy cpu-use. See [4.8] * Sometimes it will show every few minutes the dos-program ipcfg95 Solution: Find the ipcfg95.exe program, right-click on it and choose "Properties" "Window" "Run minimized" and "Protected memory". You might need to do the same with ipcfg95.bat. See [4.4] for successor. [4.3] Telnet + Authentification over WWW The main advantage of this system is it can run on any operating system. It's more "hand work", but it's more stable than Turboconnector. See http://www.turboline.be/manual/manua_en.pdf for MS-WIN Johan Morris : > Configuration for Macintosh (OS 7.6 or newer; OS 8.1 is current) is less > complicated and involves just a few steps: > > 0) In case you shut it down: start the ADSL modem, then start the Mac > > 1) NCSA TelNet 2.6 (freeware) configuration: > Keep the default values for everything; > just choose Edit -> Preferences -> Sessions to create Alias "Turboline", > Hostname "195.13.21.1", Port "23" > Choose "Save Set" from the File menu and call it "turboline" > > 2) TCP/IP control panel (comes with Mac OS) configuration: > Open the TCP/IP control panel (obviously) > First make sure the "User Mode" is "Advanced" or some options will be > greyed-out. To choose User Mode type Command-U (Command = the key with > the Apple symbol) > Connect via: "Ethernet" > Configure: "Using DHCP Server" > IP Address: (is configured automatically if ADSL-modem is ON) > Name server addr.: "195.13.14.249" and "195.13.1.13" > Additional Search domains: "turboline.be" > > 3) Netscape or Explorer configuration for Mail and proxy: > refer to the Windows manual. The "preferences" or "options" screens are > very similar. > > 4) The Turboline CD is not hybrid and contains no Mac specific files > (although there's plenty of room). Therefore, double-clicking files will > not launch the correct program. > Just copy the folder "TURBOLIN" to the harddisk, all the rest is useless > for Mac. If you don't have Acrobat yet (it comes with MacOS 8), you will > soon be able to download it fast from the internet ... > Look for the file TURBO_EN.HTM and drag & drop it on your browser. Now > make this page your "homepage". > > That's it: from now on, to start Turboline, just launch the browser, > click "Connect", wait till TelNet is on, then click "Authenticate", fill > in your UserID and password (this will be remembered and filled in for > you next time), click the grey "authenticate" button and your on. > The connection will remain valid until the Mac is shut down or until you > choose to close TelNet (with a maximum of 36 hours - Turboline limit). > Fewer steps ("automation Telnet + WWW under Mac") are possible with > Applescript, but if you make an "alias" from the browser icon and the > Telnet "turboline" set icon, copy them into the System -> Startup-folder, > then next time you startup the Mac, the TelNet connection will be made > for you, browser + authentication screen will appear automatically and > you're just 2 mouseclicks away from websurfing. For a Macintosh tool including telnet (re)connection & DANA web authentification, mailto:btl10577@turboline.be (Thierry Wautelet) [4.4] Ras for Windows 98 Newer versions of what they called in the beginning Turboconnector. See http://www.turboline.be/rasnl.htm RAS v11.26 seems to work now with all(?) network cards, at least tested on: Realtek RTL8029 / 3COM Etherlink II (3c503/16) / Accton LanPro PCI 3Com 3c900 Boomerang 10baseT / NE2000 compatible cards 6/10/98 Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event >Turboconnector/RAS disconnects the user if there was 20 minutes no traffic. [4.5] Automation of Telnet + WWW under MS-Win goturbo.bat: -------------- REM Get a new and good ip from DANA DHCP server REM The following line could be necessary REM start /min /wait c:\progra~1\belgacom\turboc~1\ipcfg95.exe /release c:\progra~1\belgacom\turboc~1\ipcfg95.exe /renew REM run your favourite telnet prog to log Dana on port 23 start /min telnet 195.13.21.1 REM start your favourite http browser on the login page start /max http://195.13.21.1/dana?USERNAME=btl*****&PASSW=******&CALL=VPN1 REM wait 30 seconds choice /t:n,30 /n REM Fix routing to other Turboline machines and surrounding subnets. route add 195.13.20.0 MASK 255.255.255.0 195.13.21.1 route add 195.13.21.0 MASK 255.255.255.0 195.13.21.1 route add 195.13.22.0 MASK 255.255.255.0 195.13.21.1 route add 195.13.23.0 MASK 255.255.255.0 195.13.21.1 -------------- [4.6] Automation of Telnet + WWW under Linux A complete package (for dhcpcd-startup, routing, telnet-connection, authentification) from Alain Nissen is available @ ftp://ftp.potaulait.be/pub/linux/turboline.tar.gz For WWW-authentification, the following simple script can be used: Jos De Graeve: > #! /bin/bash > USERNAME="btlxxxx" > CALL="VPN1" > PASSWORD="azerty" > AUTH_URL="http://195.13.21.1/dana" > > lynx -dump $AUTH_URL -post_data < USERNAME=$USERNAME&CALL=$CALL&PASSW=$PASSWORD > --- > EOF [4.7] Turboconnector emulator for Linux This one is re-engineered by Ivo Claryse, and not supported by Belgacom. See http://foobar.starlab.net/~soggie/turboline [4.8] Why do I have so many disconnections? First of all, the maximum connection time seems to be 1.5 days (36 hours). The connection ALWAYS disconnects after this time. Proof: Linux logs the message: "36 hours connected. Disconnecting..." Solution: mailto:info@turboline.be and tell them you don't like this. Modem desynchronisation : Interrupts everything but no connection is lost, except when there are multiple disconnections in a row? Solution: wait, restart? Turboconnector's unstability / keep-alive-messages / IPnr-lease renewals: Turbonnector sends a keep-alive message every minute. And since the IPnr lease is only 5 minutes valid, it will try to renew the lease every 2.5 minutes with the 16-bits-DOS (!) program ipcfg95.exe. If it doesn't ask it in time (e.g. pc is calculating), the lease is expired and your connection broken. This unreasonable lease time causes higher traffic, higher cpu-use on pc and Dana server, disconnections from pc-side during calculations, and, IMHO, disconnections because Dana server can't answer lease request in time... 1000 testers asking every 2.5 minutes a lease, that's almost average 7 requests per second... Sometimes when one telephones to the help-desk during a network-problem, they say they have problems with the Dana server but they didn't know what ... The linux dhcpd manual states that in extreme situations as in a manufacturing test site the lease time could be 30 minutes, in other situations something from 1.5 days till months... Lease time should at least be something like a day, so that you still can get the same IP address after a disconnection while you were gone, or after you turned off the modem because you can't sleep with the noise. If the dhcp server goes down for 2.5 minutes, or even just the daemon, then the first people start to get disconnected... even if the rest of the network is ok; after 5 minutes everybody is disconnected. Smart dhcp management thinks as follows (in case of really wanting a short lease time): if one expects that the dhcp server can be down for max. an hour, lease time should be at least 2 hours; max. a night down --> lease time a day; max. a week-end down --> lease time 4-5 days. NOTE: Since 08/09/98 The IPnr lease time is 20 minutes! NOTE: Since 23/09/98 The IPnr lease time is 10 minutes! :( 6/10/98 Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event >Average number of tester pc's online is 250. >Turboconnector/RAS disconnects the user if there was 20 minutes no traffic. >We perform tests during the general disconnections [4.9] Why can't I have FTP-transfers / dcc-transfers / network-games ICQ chats / Net-meetings / talk-sessions ... with other Turboliners or X-sessions / ping-replies ... with other Turboline machines? Alain Nissen : >When the TurboProject started a few months ago, Belgacom was providing >only 253 IPs for the ADSL users : 195.13.21.[2->254]. As most ADSL >users use their connection as a permanent line, Belgacom ran out of IP >addresses, and they decide to open a new range of IP address : >195.13.22.[1->254]. But, due to TCP/IP technical reasons that I'll not >explain here, it is impossible to group those ranges into a single >network. > >So Belgacom has configured its DHCP server to answer the following >network and netmask numbers : network number: 193.13.20.0 -- netmask : >255.255.255.252.0. It should mean that the ADSL network is composed of >more than 1000 IP addresses (4x256). In fact, it is not true; only >195.13.21.xxx and 195.13.22.xxx addresses are Turboline ones; the ranges >of 195.13.20.xxx and 195.13.23.xxx addresses belong to Belgacom clients >that have no ADSL connection. > >The problem is that, due to the IP parameters sent by the DHCP server, >your computer thinks that 195.13.20.xxx and 195.13.23.xxx addresses are >on the LAN (local area network), so it does not sent IP packets to the >default gateway, so those addresses are unreachable. > >If you do not believe me, just try a ping to www.reference.be >(195.13.20.2). This site is unreachable from ADSL users, while it is >reachable from the rest of the world. 19/10/98 Alain Nissen : >The first limitation is the way IP addresses are distributed to the >users. DHCP is a LAN protocol, not a point-to-point protocol. This >means that the IP addreses of the gateway and the Turboline user must be >in a single subnetwork. The gateway has the same, unique IP address for >all Turboline users, so all Turboline users are considered as part of a >large "local" network; so the IP addresses of the other Turboline users >are considered as part of the local subnetwork; so IP packets for the >other Turboline users are simply put on the Ethernet cable, instead of >being sent to the gateway. That's why they never reach their >destination. > >The second limitation was inside the Turboline broadband equipment. >Their access server was working with subnetmasks (LAN technology) and >unable to be configured as a proxy-ARP server for that "local" >subnetwork. So it was unable to act as a router for a Turboline user >that would send packets to another Turboline user through it. >(Information from Turboline, April 1998). > >Since October 17th, the second limitation has been removed. Their >server can now route packets from a Turboline user to another Turboline >user. But the first limitation is still present, because DHCP is still >in use. [4.10] Are there any ways around this routing problem? Yes, you can use a third (non-turbo) server for FTP, telnet, mail, IRC (no dcc), ICQ-messages (no chat),... However not all people have this ability (certainly not for telnet) Homepages on the home-computers of Turboliners are reachable for Turboliners if they use the proxy-server. Test with: http://users.turboline.be/grocoman The proxy-server can also be used for FTP (port 1234). 19/10/98 Alain Nissen : >There is a workaround for the first limitation (see [4.9]). In order to be >able to reach other Turboline users through the gateway, the Turboline user's >computer must believe that it is using a point-to-point connection to >the server (which is actually true!) instead of a LAN connection (as >supposed when using DHCP). > >By hacking the routing table of his/her computer, the Turboline user may >be able to reach other Turboline users ... if and only if the other >Turboline users do the same work!!! > >On Linux computers (which use Telnet+WWW connection method), you may use >the following commands for hacking your routing table, after being >connected through the normal DHCP-way: >--------- ># route del -net 195.13.20.0 eth0 ># route add -host 195.13.21.1 eth0 >--------- >(your mileage may vary if you have more than one Ethernet card in your >Linux host, or if you use a more complex routing policy) > >There is another workaround, which is easier to define but not as >powerful as the first one. You can activate the Turboline proxy >(195.13.14.253, port 1234) in your browser, so all FTP, HTTP, Gopher, >NNTP, ... connection will be established with the proxy, and the proxy >will redirect the connection to the Turboline user. This not as >powerful as the previous workaround, because the Turboline proxy can >only handle TCP connections (no UDP, no ICMP), and cannot handle each >TCP protocol. > >A third workaround is to use a non-Turboline redirector server for FTP, >Telnet, mail, ... but most Turboline users do not have access to such >redirectors. On Windows, it seems that routes given by the DHCP server cannot be deleted... However with adding routes in a particular way, others can be overridden. The following lines could be added in a batch file like in [4.5]: route add 195.13.20.0 MASK 255.255.255.0 195.13.21.1 route add 195.13.21.0 MASK 255.255.255.0 195.13.21.1 route add 195.13.22.0 MASK 255.255.255.0 195.13.21.1 route add 195.13.23.0 MASK 255.255.255.0 195.13.21.1 [4.11] Will the routing problem be solved? *TF* Turboline promised so, yes. (Already before 22 may) Alain Nissen 24/05/98: >Some weeks ago, I asked Belgacom for fixing this problem, and here is a >summary of their answer. > >Using a narrower netmask will unfortunately not work. If they used a >255.255.254.0 netmask, they would have grouped together 195.13.20.xxx >and 195.13.21.xxx, which was not possible, since 195.13.20.xxx IPs were >in use by non-ADSL Belgacom clients. > >Oh yes, they could use the netmask 255.255.254.0 for grouping together >195.13.22.xxx and 195.13.23.xxx, which were both unused IP ranges ... >but if they did, the IP address of the gateway, which is also the >address of the authentification server, would have been changed to >another IP than 195.13.21.1, so each user would have to change its >configuration ... an operation which most Turboline beta-testers are >unable to perform theirselves. > >That's why Belgacom chose to use a wider netmask (255.255.252.0), even >if the drawback is the lack of connectivity to 195.13.20.xxx and >195.13.23.xxx IP addresses. > >I suggested to Belgacom to use a proxy-ARP for routing those IPs through >their gateway; the answer was "our broadband equipment does not allow >proxy-ARP configuration". > >Belgacom also answers that the problem should be fixed in the future (no >delay was specified) with some new equipments. 03/09/98 TURBO_LINE MTM We are aware of the problem an it will be solved in the future (short >term). A future upgrade of our connecting device (Access Server) will >enable us to use ip-adress pool's instead of subnet mask's. 6/10/98 Belgacom & Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event: >It's a technical problem for the moment, but anyway one doesn't like >the the possibility that customers would use netphone. They are afraid to lose some income from calls without this restriction. But no other competitor has this restriction, so seems that with this restriction they will lose both telephone and Internet customers... 19/10/98 Alain Nissen : >The routing problem is fixed, but due to limitation in DHCP protocol, >most Turboline users are still unable to reach each others. [4.12] Why do I get sometimes 169.xxx.xxx.xxx IP nrs? *TF* >The 169.* net is private LAN, when Win98 (for example, 95 didn't do it I >think, not sure about NT) don't find the DHCP server it automatically >attribute a random address in the 169 range. Use winipcfg to release and renew the lease. [4.13] Can I get a permanent IP address? *TF* Turboline: "That won't be available until the end of the testing period." [4.14] Why are some Internet hosts not reachable (only for Turboline-testers)? More than 500 hosts (195.13.20.* and 195.13.23.*), most of them running webservers, are not reachable from Turboline. The problem is the bad routing described in [4.9] till [4.12]. The hosts can be visited through the proxy-server. 19/10/98 Alain Nissen : >When Belgacom started its Turboline project in January 1998, they >reserved only a single range of 256 IP addresses for their users: >195.13.21.xxx. But most Turboline users were using their connection as >a permanent line, and Belgacom ran out of IP addresses. So they decided >to add a new range of IP addresses: 195.13.22.xxx. Due to TCP/IP >technical reasons, it is impossible to group 195.13.21.xxx and >195.13.22.xxx ranges into a single network without including other IP >addresses; the smallest network including those ranges also includes >195.13.20.xxx and 195.13.23.xxx ranges. > >So, from the DHCP point of view, 195.13.20.xxx and 195.13.23.xxx ranges >are considered as being part of the Turboline network. That's why they >are unreachable from Turboline users, as explained in [4.9]. > >The same workarounds as in [4.10] may be used for sending and receiving >IP packets to/from those addresses. 15/10/98 info@turboline.be: >Op vrijdag 16 oktober zal vanaf 8u00 's morgens onze technische dienst >een paar wijzigingen op het netwerk doorvoeren. Dit zal een tijdelijke >dienstonderbreking tot gevolg hebben. De bedoeling van deze operatie >is U de mogelijkheid aan te bieden naar de IP klasse 13.20 en 13.23 >te kunnen gaan die tot nu toe niet bereikbaar waren via Turbo line. However, this wasn't succesful? [4.15] What about RAS forgetting my settings? RAS (v11.26) forgets the settings (login and password) after login of another user or after starting of screensaver. The following message is given: "No Connection Defined" Solution: make the files in the RAS dir read-only. [4.16] PPTP connection method 06/10/98 Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event >Turboline will stop using Turboconnetor/RAS, and will use PPTP as soon >as it is available. PPTP is an open standard, but adapted in a very bad way by Microsoft. See http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/support/pptpfaq.asp http://www.counterpane.com/pptp-faq.html 01/12/98 Turboline >A cause de l'évolution technique continuelle de notre réseau, nous allons >changer ce jeudi 3ème décembre1998 ( Vers midi ) les login scripts actuels >(RAS/Telnet) par un nouveau login script. Ce nouveau login script est basé >sur le protocole PPTP (point-to-point tunneling). >Ce protocole est standard pour Win 98 et Win NT 4.0. Les utilisateurs de >Windows95 devront downloader MSDUN1.3 du site microsoft.com. (cf fichier en >annexe) 04/12/98 Stefaan Ponnet : PPTP authentication will not be applied in the near future. They apparently still have some problems with it. [5] Speed [5.1] Standard speed abbreviations *TF* There is much confusion about this in the newsgroups, especially the lower and uppercase b/B ;-) So please use only the official abbreviations: Kbps - Kb/s - Kbit/s - Kilobits per second KBps - KB/s - Kbyte/s - Kilobytes per second Mbps - Mb/s - Mbit/s - Megabits per second MBps - MB/s - Mbyte/s - Megabytes per second [5.2] What's the speed of ADSL? ADSL local loop speed is maximum 8mbit/s downstream and max 0.64mbit/s upstream. However speed is decreasing linearly with distance home -> telco-center. [5.3] What's the speed of Turboline? Turboline wrote @ http://www.turboline.be/gb/aboutgb.htm : "You can expect impressive speeds of up to 8 Megabits/second from the server to your computer (downstream) and 630 Kilobits/second from your computer to the server (upstream)." BUT: 11/05/98 there was a speed limit of 400kbit/s (tested by myself and admitted by the installers). Now (since at least 24 July) Turboline has limited the speed to 1/16th of the ADSL speed, i.e. 64Kbyte/s or 512Kbit/s. Upstream speed is about 112kbit/s. 31/07/98 David Van Dromme stated that he reached 1360Kbit/s some months before. [5.4] What will be the speed of the commercial product? See http://www.turboline.be/gb/aboutgb.htm : >You can expect impressive speeds of up to 8 Megabits/second from the >server to your computer (downstream) and 630 Kilobits/second from your >computer to the server (upstream). 14/5/98 Trends Magazine - Wim De Meyer Broadband Director of Belgacom: "Denk nu niet dat Belgacom via ADSL 8 megabit per seconde gaat leveren. Daarvoor zou de rest van het netwerk moeten volgen en bandbreedte is duur, vooral internationaal" In my (Frederik Questier) opinion a totally wrong argument. It's no problem to connect whatever local speed to whatever external speed. A high local speed with a low external speed is much better than a low local speed with that same low external speed. 01/06/98 Olivier Servais Sales Director: >Turboline tarieven zullen bekend worden in de loop van juli, of misschien >vroeger, en niets is vandaag bekend. Wij zijn inderdaad van plan 128 kb >access voor te stellen. 6/10/98 Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event >Yes, we test speeds higher than 512kbit/s during the general disconnections. 06/12/98 Official TurboFAQ http://www.turboline.be/faq/indexfaq.htm: >During the precommercial phase the bandwidth will remain the same as today. >During the commercial phase the peak bitrate performance will be increased. [5.5] Are there any speed comparisons with Cable-Internet? Theoretical: 10/10Mbps 10+1.5Mbps 30+<=30Mbps 2.4Gbit/s NIC----------CABLEMODEM---------------STATION====GLASSFIBRE=========Telenet Dedicated|Shared 10/10Mbps 10+10Mbps 30?+30?Mbps ?Gbit/s NIC----------CABLEMODEM---------------STATION====GLASSFIBRE???==========TVD Dedicated|Shared Original idea (future?): 10/10Mbps <8+<0.64Mbps <=155Mbps ?Mbps NIC----------ADSLMODEM-------------TelcoCenter===ATM-RING===-------provider Dedicated|Shared Actual situation at 6/10/98 10/10Mbps <8+<0.64Mbps 2Mbps ?Mbps NIC----------ADSLMODEM-------------TelcoCenter-----DANA------------Belbone Dedicated|Shared Telenet old modem speed: 10 Mbit/s down + 0.768 Mbit/s up Telenet new Motorola modem speed 10 Mbit/s down + 1.56 Mbit/s up TVD Lancity LCP modem: 10 Mbit/s down + 10 Mbit/s up Alcatel ADSL 1000 modem 8 Mbit/s down + 0.64 Mbit/s up So on Cable network one is a bit earlier sharing with the neighbours, but that doesn't matter as much as Belgacom want us to believe to, since the bandwith is higher everywhere in the network. The shared 30mbps can become limiting, but it's the speed per TV-channel. When the number of customers in your region raises, they can put some of your neighbours on another TV-channel. Remark: The 30mbps per channel is the maximum and most used standard for Cable-Internet. It is however possible that Telenet (in some regions with "full" cable ~450MHz) combines several low frequency channels which have less bandwidth due to the noise. TVD has 862MHz (equivalent of 100 TV channels); so no problem for them. For the moment 50-100 ADSL testers are sharing a 2mbit/s line from their telco-center till the "DANA" centrum. Experimental: Wim Godden: >De topsnelheid van kabelmodem ligt veel hoger. Ik zit op zowel >Pandora als Turboline en ik haal op Pandora hogere topsnelheden dan op >Turboline. Op Pandora geraak ik tot 915kbyte/sec (gemiddelde voor 16MB file) > >Telenets maximum speed measured: 943kbyte/s > >Al mijn tests wezen uit dat Pandora sneller is, zowel qua zuivere >ping-replies als transfersnelheden. Bij Pandora haal ik 245kbyte/sec >vanaf Belnet, bij Turboline mag je blij zijn als je aan 35 geraakt. 09/11/98 Stan Claes over Telenets snelheid: >Lokaal (vb van proxy of mirror sites) : 4 Mbps (Mega bits per seconde) >Nationaal > ftp.belnet.be: 2 Mbps >Naar de US: > ftp.microsoft.com : 100 kbps > ftp.sun.com: 70 kbps >Binnen europa : > ftp://www.cern.ch : 600 kbps > ftp.funet.fi: 30 kbps > sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk: 500 kbps wim@movie.nl (Wim Dewijngaert): >www.altavista.digital.com >TVD: 8 KBps, TURBO: 6 KBps > >www.turboline.be >TVD: 5 KBps, TURBO: 15 KBps > >www.tvd.be >TVD: 30 KBps, TURBO: 4 KBps > >www.ping.be >TVD: 30 KBps, TURBO: 4 KBps > >www.playboy.be (just for fun) >TVD: 7 KBps, TURBO: 4 KBps 28-29/1/99 be.providers http://www.users.skynet.be/pooler/test.htm (only M$ Explorer) TVD: 3-4 s Telenet: 11 s Turboline 19 s [5.6] How can I measure my speed? Most accurate is to ftp a large file and see what the ftp-program reports as speed, or divide the filesize (bytes) by the time (seconds). Netscape is not accurate in showing speeds. MS-WIN: Net.Medic (shareware 30 days). See http://tucows.turboline.be tcpspeed: http://www.maximized.com/freeware/tcpspeed DUmeter (gives non-accurate peak-speeds) IRIX: osview [5.7] How can I know how much traffic I had? *TF* MS-WIN: * open a dosbox and enter "netstat -e" and you see how many data you have sent and received since the time you booted your PC. * DUmeter * iCount: http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/oracle/639 Unix: netstat Linux: Lots of choice @ http://winbe.linuxberg.com/conhtml/adm_monitoring.html [5.8] Is somebody monitoring Turboline's performance? http://postmodem.com/dips/joyce/monitor/monitor.html http://joyce.ddns.org/monitor/monitor.html Frederik Questier [6] Prices [6.1] What prices does Belgacom have in mind? Belgacom said several times officially to offer ADSL for prices comparable to TVDs and Telenets cable internet access prices (which is 1499bf/month) 11/05/98 The installers told me that the price would be something like 2000bf per month. They spoke about no limits. And they were thinking that in this price the rental for the modem and the monthly telephone subscription would be included. However they were not very sure. 05/98 Michel Goossens : >Last week, I had a visit from a Belgacom guy who asked me some >questions. Obviously the purpose was to see what kind of pricing would >interest the future customer. There were some questions about my >"surfing" habits, time "connected" and so on. Then some questions about >the services I would be interested in : home-shopping, movies, games, >... . And then I had to choose among 20 or so pricing schemes by first >selecting those I am interested in, then ranking them by preference, then >ranking the others and then saying what was the schemes I would never >choose. > >Those schemes included : >- time connected (unlimited, 4O, 30, 20, 10 or 5 hours) >- speed (1,5 Mbs and decreasing to, yes, 33kbs !) - download. >- price (999, 1999, 2999 and 4999 BF) >- international transfers (600, 300 or 150 MB max) 05/06/98 Turboline helpdesk: There will be no limitations and no volume limit on commercialisation. Prices are not fixed yet, but will be concurrential with TVD and Telenet. 06/08/98 Manuel Borowski Alcatel Telecom: The Alcatel employees got an enquete: 1: Are you willing to pay 2500-3500 bfr/month for ADSL? 2: Are you willing to pay 10000 to 15000 bfr for the modem? 3: Would you take ADSL if you need a Pentium with a ethernet card for it? 13/08/98 Manuel Borowski Alcatel Telecom: >Persoonlijk vind ik dat een beetje te veel, de prijs zou wel mogen >zakken. Ik weet trouwens ook niet wat Belgacom bezielt om >niet-concurentiele prijzen voor te stellen, je jaagt je klanten zo toch >weg? Verder denk ik dat de ADSL infrastructuur plus modems goedkoper >zijn dan bij telenet, dus.. 28/09/98 Datanews Magazine nr 26: General manager Pascal Methens van Belgacom: "Uit de test blijkt dat het gebruik van deze dienst veel hoger ligt dan we aanvankelijk dachten. We zullen dan ook naar de markt gaan met verschillende tarief-paketten." De tarieven zijn blijkbaar al bepaald, ... 22/1/99 http://www.skynet.be/en/news/adsl.html >If you decide to subscribe to the Belgacom ADSL service after the >testing phase (i.e. March '99), Belgacom will charge you a fee of 6.000 >BEF for the installation and configuration of the cable, the >line-splitter and the ADSL-modem. You will have to pay 9.000 BEF if >Belgacom also has to install your Ethernet card. The monthly ADSL >subscription price charged by Belgacom will be between 1.800 BEF and >3.000 BEF (VAT included) for 500 MB to 1 GB data-transfer and between 3 >and 4 BEF for each additional MB. The Belgacom Skynet subscription price >has not been determined yet! 24/2/99 http://www.skynet.be/skynews/nl/adsl.html#kosten >Wat gaat ADSL u kosten? >Daar hebben we nog geen duidelijk zicht op. De testfase moet ons in de >mogelijkheid stellen dit te bepalen. De prijs zou evenwel niet hoger >liggen dan 2000 bef/ 49,57 euro per maand. Vergeet niet dat daar geen >telefoonkosten meer bijkomen en dat ook de installatiekosten in deze >prijs inbegrepen zijn! [6.2] What are the prices of Cable-Internet? Telenet residential 1499bf/month modem included TVD academical 900bf/month modem included TVD residential 1350bf/month 500bf/month modem Seditel academical 750bf/month Brutele residential 1936bf/month 599bf/month modem ACM (Association Cable Multimedia) test project Wolu-TV test project For comparison with ADSL prices it important to remember that with Cable-Internet everything is included in those prices, both connection and provider costs! [6.3] Any other price comparisons? ADSL in France is 1600bf/month flat fee (no volume restrictions) for 2mbit/s + 150kbit/s. Ameritech (who owns large part of Belgacom) also gives unlimited flat fee access and so many others... In the US often for 30$ or even 20$ per month. US/West only gives a slow 256kbps, but for the nice price of 20$. @Home (largest cable/ADSL network in the US) offers speeds varying from 256kbit/sec to 30Mbit/sec (yes indeed !!!) for $29.95 to $49.95 (1.750bf) (depending on what kind of options you want and in what area you live). Roadrunner: http://www.rr.com/rdrun/explore/pricing_fs.html $39.95 per month modem rental included, UNLIMITED access. [6.4] What about the volume limit? *TF* 05/06/98 Turboline helpdesk: There will be no limitations and no volume limit on commercialisation. 01/10/98 owner-turboline@mail.belbone.be: >Aangezien de technische pilootfase beëindigd is, zouden wij u willen >informeren dat vanaf heden een precommerciële aanbieding op punt >wordt gezet. Deze zal vanaf vandaag in werking treden en zal in een >eerste fase enkel toegankelijk zijn voor de internauten die aan het >pilootproject hebben deelgenomen. > >Dit wil dus zeggen dat vanaf nu er een bijdrage zal worden gevraagd >voor Turbo Line, de hoge snelheidslijn van Belgacom, namelijk een >maandelijks bedrag van 1449,- BEF (BTW incl.), inclusief 250 Mbytes >per maand. >De bijkomende Mbytes zullen echter niet worden aangerekend tijdens >deze precommerciële fase. Deze aanbieding is geldig voor de komende >drie maanden. Absolutely ridiculous of course: 250MBytes/month = 4 minutes @ 8Mbit/s (ADSL speed) = 65 minutes @ 512Kbit/s (Turboline speed) = 10 hours @ 56.5Kbit/s (PSTN modem) = 20 minutes/day @ 56.5Kbit/s (PSTN modem) = 0.76 Kbit/s = 0.0095% of 8Mbit/s (ADSL speed) = 0.15% of 512Kbit/s (Turboline speed) = 2.8 hours video @ 200Kbit/s (e.g the ones @ http://www.turboline.be) = 5.5 minutes/day video @ 200Kbit/s = 8 MBytes/day = watching to the news once everyday (http://www.vtm.be) = not 1 Linux-distribution per month The traffic is so little that 1300 users together won't even use more than what fits in an 1Mbit/s line. While 1300 customers @ 1449BF generate almost 2 million BF income per month! 6/10/98 Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event > The present average monthly traffic per user is slightly superior to 250 MB. > The present median monthly traffic per user is somewhat superior to the average. > The present monthly maximum is 10-12 GB for a couple of users. "from a Gaussian curve" However: A MAXIMUM SHOULD NOT BE CHOSEN BASED ON AN AVERAGE !!! 06/12/98 Official TurboFAQ http://www.turboline.be/faq/indexfaq.htm: >* Price to pay when 250 MB-limit is passed ? > The price for the MB above the volume limit will be defined on basis of > the results of the precommercial phase. This will be communicated in > December ‘98. The 250 MB limit is not applicable during the > precommercial phase. >* Is the 250 MB limited for the consumption downstream and upstream? > The 250MB limit is for both upstream as downstream. The volume > consumption will be further analyzed during the precommercialisation > phase in order to adapt the offer for the commercial phase. >* Is mail included in 250 MB-limit ? > Yes, the consumption of mail is included. Internet Traffic volume billing is unfair for many reasons: Customers are not responsible for all traffic going to its machine. Think about paying for: - unsollicited mail (can you imagine paying for your received papermail?) - the mail the provider sends to you (generates them easy profit) - advertisements (banners, ...) - protocol traffic (connection, authentification, dhcp, keep-alive messages,...) - retransmission of lost packets (the lower quality of connections, the more profit again for ADSL-provider) - after unvoluntary disconnections, traffic for reconnection and restart of downloads. - people trying to visit your machine - people trying to visit another ADSL-customer who actually bump into your site because your provider once again changed your IP-number - people who flood your machine with huge amounts of data, maybe day and night, just because they hate you, your provider, Belgacom/Turboline, or that other ADSL-customer that had that IP-number before you... Depending on where the counter is situated in the network, the taxated traffic can be even much more than what is possible with the modem's speed limit, e.g. with UDP floods. UDP (used for e.g. movies and audio) is connectionless, which means that the data not has to arrive, it gets lost on the way as the bandwidth gets to narrow. Where the flood starts it can be e.g. 10mbit/s; when it passes the current Turboline bottle-neck (due to be upgraded) of 2mbit/s, 80% gets lost and only 2mbit/s gets through, when it reaches the ADSL modem, the flood get narrowed to the upload speed (112kbit/s). Depending on where the counter is (before/after the 2mbit/s line, in the modem), the traffic accounted is 10 or 2 or 0.112 mbit/s. Which is 108000, 21600 or 1209 BF per day at 4BF/MB ... My guess is that the counter is or at least is polled from the telco center, that's - seen from outside - behind the 2mbit/s bottle-neck. So the counter would measure (for the moment) 2mbit/s... Such floods are quite easy to establish from other permanent connections, they can be sheduled (e.g. at night). Lots of variants exist, where the victim does / does not notice anything, where the victim's computer does / does not crashes. It's even possible to start the flood from a dialup line, fake the originating host adress and start a flood between the victim's pc and one of the servers of his provider, which even will continu when the dialup connection is broken. What with the inherent very different costs of different types of traffic? The "free" traffic inside the ADSL-network, to the providers servers, and to academic sites over BNIX (sponsored by the government). The cheap traffic with the providers with peering agreement. The expensive National/International/Transatlantic traffic... The cheapest traffic, i.e the traffic between 2 of their customers, they would even get double money... What with the monthly enormous increase of traffic use (not only more Internet usage, but also heavier pages, heavier standards for audio, video,...)? Will Belgacom be able to index their prices fast enough? Volume billing will result in: - unsatisfied customers - inhibition of internet and e-commerce growth - over-capacity at the end of each month - migration of customers to providers who don't apply volume billing ;-) (e.g. TVD, Brutele, Telenet...) - extra costs for traffic counting equipment - worse network performance (sure if everything would be counted by the DANA, which allready cannot handle the load of authentification and dhcp of 1000 testers) - customers trying to avoid costs by stealing other's passwords, using fake IP-nrs, and whatever (look I'm searching already...) - More malafide persons flooding the network... Moreover, volume billing should not be the concern of Belgacom/Turboline. They only have to build an national network, maybe completely limited to Belgacom buildings. That costs almost nothing, while the Internet providers have to hire international bandwidth, and if Belgacom plays it rude, even a Belgacom-line till the ADSL-centers. By the way, why volume limits while there are already speed limits? 22/1/99 http://www.skynet.be/en/news/adsl.html >The monthly ADSL subscription price charged by Belgacom will be between >1.800 BEF and 3.000 BEF (VAT included) for 500 MB to 1 GB data-transfer >and between 3 and 4 BEF for each additional MB. The Belgacom Skynet >subscription price has not been determined yet! [7] Misc. [7.1] When is Belgacom going commercial with ADSL? *TF* 14/12/97 Crescendo (Belgacoms Coroporate Magazine for telecom strategies) "Undergoing testing with some 1,000 users until June 30, 1998, the service will be progressively marketed throughout Belgium starting at the end of next summer." 03/98 Belgacom MTM unofficial : January 1999 03/06/98 Data News 22: ADSL IN SEPTEMBER Belgacom Multimedia is van plan om in september zijn commercieel ADSL-aanbod aan te kondigen. Aanvankelijk was dit voor juni of juli voorzien, maar general manager Pascal Methens wil pas wat aankondigen als alles pico bello draait. 24/06/98 Unknown source : Beginning 1999 20/08/98 Trends magazine: "Voor de toegang tot WIN (Wallonie-IntraNet) wil Belgacom ADSL gebruiken... Het gewest verwacht dat in november eerstkomend de eerste ADSL-aansluitingen in Luik en en Namen een feit zullen zijn." 04/09/98 Johan Morris : > In De Standaard heeft de verslaggever in de rand begrepen dat "er voor > ADSL reeds 1000 testers zijn en er nu een 2e groep van 1000 testers > wordt aan toegevoegd. De commerciële lancering zou na de testen ergens > in de loop van volgend jaar gebeuren." In ek geval kunnen we niet zonder Turboline vallen. In het contract (artikel 2.2) staat er: "Op het einde van de vastgestelde termijn heeft de Gebruiker de mogelijkheid om met Belgacom een nieuwe contract voor het gebruik van de Turboline-dienstverlening te sluiten,..." 04/09/98 Nieuwsblad http://www.vum.be/nbif09kopiebelg2.html: >Belgacom plant ADSL volgend jaar te commercialiseren. 05/09/98 felis domesticus (Belgacom) in be.providers: >Turboline zit in een testfase. Afhankelijk van de resultaten van deze >testfase zal een commercialisatie volgen en zullen de werkelijke voor- en >nadelen van het systeem gekend zijn. Voor dit bekend is, weten we ook van >niks en kunnen we hoogstens met onzinnige speculaties afkomen. 28/09/98 Datanews Magazine nr 26: De tarieven zijn blijkbaar al bepaald, maar Belgacom wil eerst de onderhandelingen over de BRIO 99 en de aansluitende Internet interconnectie afwachten. Die zouden in principe op 20/11 afgerond moeten zijn. Tot zolang wil Belgacom de testperiode verlengen. Het heeft daarover een brief geschreven naar het BIPT. Het BIPT had eerder (mede op vraag van Telenet) beslist dat de trial eind september moest afgelopen zijn. "Moet we dan plotsen stoppen? En in november herbeginnen?" vraagt P. Methens. "Ik zou graag verder testen met de Internet dienstenleveranciers". 22/10/98 Official TurboFAQ >1. When does commercialization start ? When can I subscribe ? >The definitive date is not yet defined but will be communicated in >December 98. During the precommercial phase «new» Fast Internet >connections will pass via the ISP’s. The date will be communicated by >the participating ISP’s the moment the ISP’s are ready to offer the Fast >Internet Access. 22/12/98 Pascal Methens, General Manager Multimedia & Infohighways >Om u een dienstverlening te kunnen aanbieden die aan uw verwachtingen >beantwoordt en om de ISP's toe te laten zich voor te bereiden, heeft >Belgacom beslist om deze precommerciele fase te verlengen tot 31 maart >1999. [7.2] Is Belgacom reading the turboline.* newsgroups? Yep, and they said that they can learn a lot from the news-postings. >vous pouvez être certain que certaines personnes de l'équipe Turbo Line >suivent attentivement les échanges d'idées dans les différents newsgroup de >Turbo Line. Notre philosophie nous amène à ne pas intervenir dans ces >newsgroups car nous voulons que cela se fasse le plus librement possible. 6/10/98 Turbo Line Squad event Many Turboline team members said they read (and enjoy) the newsgroups and this FAQ! But they don't want to interfere. [7.3] What about Privacy / security ? http://www.alcatel.com/telecom/asd/keytech/adsl/dana Dana enables operators to generate billing data and maintain detailed user profiles on data rates, service classes, etc. 6/10/98 Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event: >The DANA server runs RADIUS software which generates statistics per user. >We've got already traffic statistics. 6/10/98 Belgacom MTM @ Turbo Line Squad event >Turboline will stop using Turboconnector/RAS, and will use PPTP as soon >as it is available. This protocol uses encryption but is already compromised. See: http://www.counterpane.com/pptp.html [7.4] Do you have any speed tips? Many people noticed that almost everything goes faster without the proxy. Other suggested to use this proxy: proxy.skynet.be port 8080 Don't forget to exclude exclude this: 195.13.21.1, dana, turboline.be [7.5] Will ADSL be available everywhere at the same time? *TF* 1?/08/98 Manuel Borowski Alcatel Telecom: >Het al dan niet kunnen aanbieden van de ADSL dienst heeft niets te maken >met het type centrale waarop je aangesloten bent (mag in principe zelfs >een van voor WO I zijn :-)) >Het is wel zo dat er in de centrale ADSL apparatuur geplaatst moet >worden (de tegenhanger van de modem thuis), die verschillende ADSL >lijnen (bvb 1000) samen neemt en op een glasvezel (ATM) plaatst. Test if your telco center is ADSL-ready: http://www.turboline.be/non-turbo/extenduk.htm http://www.eunet.be/corporate/news/adsltest [7.6] Which providers give ADSL-access? http://www.eunet.be/corporate/news/adsltest (max 77 testers) http://www.ping.be/Community/adsltest (max 80 testers) http://www.infonie.be (max 80 testers) http://www.euronet.be/home/uk/news_news010199.shtml http://www.skynet.be/en/news/adsl.html (max 80 testers) http://www.interweb.be 24/12/98 UUNet helpdesk: >Belgacom stelt te hoge eisen. Er zijn besprekingen op hoog niveau bij >Belgacom en het BIPT, maar het zal eerder maanden dan weken duren >alvorens men bij ons ADSL zal kunnen testen. 24/12/98 Planet Internet helpdesk: >Wij zijn niet betrokken in het project. ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://surf.to/Frederik.Questier Frederik Questier http://vub.vub.ac.be/~fquestie fquestie@vub.vub.ac.be -----------------------------------------------------------------